In this podcast, Brandon, Christine, and Justin discuss the nature of evil. Does evil exist? Is there a force of evil? What about morality? And finally, how can you come up with your own personal code of ethics, and apply them ruthlessly to your own reality? After all, you are the final say of what is permitted in your universe.
Music composed by Collective Intelligence Music
Discussed in today’s podcast (click the link to jump to that section of the transcript):
- Defining Evil
- Conceptions of Evil Differ
- Harmful Circumstances Can Serve a Higher Purpose
- No One Ever Does Anything They Think of as Evil
- We Tend to Label as “Evil” Anything Others Do that We Don’t Like
- There is No Evil, Only Sickness and Poor Choices
- Evil Exists Subjectively But Not Objectively
- Example: Hitler
- Rejecting the Label of “Evil” Doesn’t Mean You Have to Put Up with Bad Behavior
- Methods for Protecting Yourself from Harmful People
Brandon: Welcome to The Unseen World. This is episode 7, “The Nature of Evil.” I am Brandon Olivares.
Christine: And I’m Christine Olivares.
Justin: And I’m Justin Williams.
Brandon: In today’s podcast, we are talking about a pretty controversial subject overall: what exactly evil is and how it fits into our discussion about magic and everything else. Is evil really a useful concept to begin with? Before we get into that, we’re going to make some announcements. If you would like to see the show notes or to leave a comment on our podcast, you can go to cocreationcoaching.org/unseen007.
Again, we’re talking about the nature of evil today and what exactly evil is, whether it’s a useful concept at all. It’s something that has been coming up lately, especially as I’ve explored the left-hand path and black magic and that kind of thing. It’s just something that’s been popping up because as I’ve been studying these concepts (after realizing more and more that evil starts to lose meaning).
Brandon: Everything that certain people think is evil turns out to not be so much so. There are such misconceptions out there. People think black magic is evil, for instance. It’s obviously not in a certain perspective. People think the left-hand path is evil. Even the symbol of Satan I’ve been talking about, people think is evil. It’s just not.
So it’s been coming up in my own consciousness. What exactly is evil? Does evil really exist? What exactly does it mean? It was actually funny because I think last week in one of the comments, someone brought up a question like this about evil. I don’t remember what the comment was now, but I just remember that someone made the comment. It kind of brought all this to the forefront. I remember a comment you made, Justin, a few weeks ago in one of The Unseen World podcasts. We were talking about me leaving Christianity and people thinking that was evil or being swayed by the devil. Do you remember that conversation, Christine?
Christine: Yes, I do.
Brandon: Justin was like, “As long as it’s not technical evil,” and I said, “What does that mean? What is evil?”
Justin: Yes, I sure did. I remember that.
Christine: That was two weeks ago. That was the last “Unseen World.”
Brandon: Yes, you’re right. It’s hard to keep track of. [laughs]
Christine: You’re pretty busy now.
Brandon: No kidding. Where I want to start, I think, is a discussion of what exactly evil is or can we actually come up with a definition. I want this to be more of an open-ended discussion. Christine already knows where I’m going with it, so I’m going to pick on Justin. [laughs]
Brandon: You know where I’m going with it. You could probably read my mind and give the podcast for me.
Christine: I don’t know about that.
Brandon: [laughs] So, Justin, if you had to put a definition on “evil,” what would you say it is?
Justin: I don’t have one. It switches. If I had to put one, I’d say injury or impeding someone’s progress for no reason. Without cause. Other than that, that’s kind of what I would say. Some people would go, “There are some acts that are always evil, but you could still do them if the cause is right.” I guess I would go with that one, too. I would at least say that that’s true. I would not argue with somebody if they told me. Just as a bare-bones definition, anytime you’re injuring or impeding someone’s progress or injuring someone without cause.
Brandon: Okay. That’s a good one.
Christine: I like it, too.
Brandon: I think for most people (I guess it depends who you talk to) it’s so hard. Like you implied, Justin, it’s sort of a relative thing. It switches around a lot. If you ask a Christian what is evil, they’ll have all sorts of ideas. A Christian might think, for example, Islam is evil or that witchcraft…
Justin: Wicca is evil.
Brandon: Wicca or witchcraft or magic.
Christine: Catholics think Reiki is evil, don’t they?
Brandon: Right, or Tarot…
Justin: Healing touch. [laughs]
Brandon: There’s all sorts of things a Christian might say. Certain radical Muslims might think Christianity was evil, or Western culture in general. It’s sort of slippery. Some people might go with something like, “If you are harming someone, then that’s evil,” but then we have to come down to “How do you know if you’re harming someone or not in the broader term of things?” Even with your definition, Justin, it’s a really good one, but my question is, “If someone’s progress is being halted or they’re being injured in some way, isn’t that a result of what they are doing to themselves?” It’s not victim blaming.
Justin: I guess it’d be the intentional harming. If you intentionally did it. You could still spiritually say, “Hey, you caused it.”
Brandon: Exactly, right. That doesn’t excuse, necessarily, the perpetrator. This is very difficult ground we’re walking here. I don’t want to say we’re excusing people who do harm. I’ll talk about this later. Doing harm is very different from what evil is in general. We’re just talking about the label of “evil.” What you personally put up with in your own life is different. We’ll talk about that later in the podcast.
Conceptions of Evil Differ
Christine: And is there even such a thing as evil? That’s another.
Brandon: That’s what I’m getting to.
Christine: Because everyone’s evil is relative.
Justin: From culture to culture and context to context, it changes. There are different variations of it depending on where you go. For example, in the Wild West, if you took a man’s horse, that was actually tantamount to a death sentence. If you were caught as a horse thief, you were hanged. A man died in the desert without his horse, possibly. That was actually really serious. It just depended.
Harmful Circumstances Can Serve a Higher Purpose
Brandon: It’s so hard to pin down. If you’re intentionally harming someone, two things: #1. They somehow energetically speaking magically speaking brought that into their reality. Not to blame the victim…
Christine: Deep down stuff.
Brandon: The spiritual laws of it, the principles of it, didn’t they somehow get that into their own world?
Second of all, if they did indeed bring that into their own reality, then isn’t it somehow serving a higher purpose? It’s either going to motivate them to improve spiritually or to become more powerful spiritually or energetically or magically speaking? We talked a while ago about whether anything can really be off your path. Can you really be off your path? Broader context, the answer is no.
Christine: I don’t mean to cut you off, but I have a friend who I visit a lot. She’s local. She’s gone through a lot. I don’t think, as tough as things are for her sometimes, I don’t know if she would always say something like, “I’m glad it happened because I am more powerful.” I don’t think she would change it, even if at that time she’s like, “Oh, my God.” She’s always stronger. She doesn’t play victim. She knows it’s for a greater purpose. It’s incredible.
Justin: The thing is, you can say that it’s never evil because it’s always helping—it’s the way they had to learn that lesson. You can do a lot of stuff with that. It’s for your higher good. You didn’t learn the lesson the first two times or three times it was presented to you at first, so this evil thing had to happen. This bad thing had to happen to you, so it’s not really evil because this is actually helping you on your higher path. You can do that kind of stuff if you really want. Explain that to a rape victim.
No One Ever Does Anything They Think of as Evil
Brandon: Again, what I’m trying to say here is it is very sensitive. We’re walking a very fine line that I really don’t want to offend anyone. I’m not asking if certain actions are harmful. I’m asking, “Does evil exist?” Yes, horrible things happen. When I say horrible, I mean that they are harmful to us physically, emotionally, psychologically, spiritually. That’s true, yes. That brings me to my next point, so thank you. The question is does evil actually exist? I want to bring in a quote which I totally agree with. We talked about something like this in philosophy when I was in college. I don’t think it was this exact quote, but we talked about something like this. You know who Mary Shelley is?
Justin: Yes, she wrote Frankenstein.
Christine: Okay, that’s what I thought, but I didn’t know. Why is that so familiar?
Brandon: She said, “No man chooses evil because it is evil. He only mistakes it for happiness, the good he seeks.”
Justin: I don’t totally agree with that, but that is true, actually, in many…
Christine: I do.
Brandon: I do, because if you see any coverage of a serial killer or anything like that—someone who does what we consider the worst evil—they always justify it. They never think, “Oh, I was so happy to cause all this pain. I knew I was doing horrible things and I’m so happy.”
Christine: Some of them are.
Justin: Some of them are.
Brandon: But they turn it to good some way in their own heads. I don’t remember which example this is, but there was a serial killer who killed prostitutes, and his excuse was he was cleaning the streets, basically.
Justin: Yes, they’ll do that, but some people really just….I’ve worked with people. They just did things. They didn’t justify it. They just did it because it was there to do, and they felt like it.
Brandon: But they never think they’re doing evil, though. I have never seen an example where someone actually thought he was doing evil. If they do, then it’s later on and they feel guilt about it. No one at the time thinks they’re doing evil and is happy that they’re doing evil. It’s a very fine line. Most, if not all people, who do something like that, justify it in some way to themselves. It was to them a good thing, or minimally speaking not a bad thing. The human mind is a very powerful thing. It can rationalize. How did the Crusades happen, where tons of people were killed in the name of religion? How did the Inquisition happen? We can justify and rationalize all sorts of different things.
Christine: Look at the Holocaust.
Brandon: We never think at the time, “Yes, I’m doing evil.” Not even Hitler thought he was doing evil. He thought he was doing a great good. Obviously he wasn’t, but he thought he was. No one ever thinks at the time, “Yes, I’m doing evil right now, hahaha.”
Christine: Even the people who kill people for…
Justin: I’d say most people are like what you said.
Christine: Even the people who kill people for—how can I put this delicately? I don’t remember the name of it. Sexual relations with dead people. What’s the name of that?
Brandon: Necrophilia. [laughs] That took a turn.
Justin: Necrophilia, not pedophilia. I’m sorry.
Christine: That’s a justification, though. It’s a stupid one, but it is. [laughs]
Brandon: That took a turn.
Justin: I don’t count stupid justifications in certain things that I’ve seen.
Brandon: But they’re all stupid. They’re all stupid. I’m not saying they’re worthy justifications, but they are justifications. They’re all going to say, “It was a good thing I did because X, Y, and Z.” Or “It was not a bad thing I did because whatever.”
Christine: Was it John Brown who killed in the name of God? Some people kill in the name of God.
Brandon: Lots of people kill in the name of God. “She deserved it.”
Christine: “They killed my wife because…”
Brandon: All sorts of justifications. I’m not saying they’re worthy justifications. I’m just saying they’re justifications. No one purposefully in their minds goes out and says, “Yes, I’m going to do evil.” They might know it’s evil in the eyes of someone else, but in their own eyes, somehow it’s not evil. That’s what I’m saying. No one goes out to say, “Yes, I’m going to do some evil today.”
Justin: Hello, guys. We’re going to do a little evil.
Brandon: [laughs] We have to be mindful of this. If you look throughout history, what you see is a whole bunch of people demonizing a whole bunch of other people.
Christine: Even bullies. Why do bullies do what they do? They don’t say, “This is evil, so I’m going to go do this.”
We Tend to Label as “Evil” Anything Others Do that We Don’t Like
Brandon: If you look through history, you’re going to see a whole bunch of people demonizing other people. I think we discussed before the Church would demonize heretical groups, especially in the Middle Ages. They would write these horrendous descriptions of how they were sacrificing babies and drinking blood and other horrible things.
Even last century in the 80s, the Satanic scare—after the Church of Satan was formed and they were pretty public, everyone started thinking Satan was everywhere in rock music and there were all these sacrifices going on with kids getting caught up in it. Psychologists would talk to young kids and basically lead them on to believe that they had been part of some Satanic ritual where they never were. There was no substance to those allegations whatsoever, but people would be scared of something, demonize it, make up a whole bunch of stuff about it. None of it was actually true. Evil seems to be (to me, when you’re looking back through history) what other people are doing that we don’t like, essentially.
Justin: Pretty much. If you don’t like it, it’s evil.
Brandon: If you don’t like it, it’s evil.
Christine: That’s true.
Justin: Many times.
There is No Evil, Only Sickness and Poor Choices
Brandon: It’s what other people are doing that we don’t like. It’s so simplified. I’m desensitized to it a little bit because I grew up meeting a lot of Christians and people of other religions, too, who would judge and demonize something. Then I’d go and actually explore that thing, and it wasn’t even close to what they thought it was. You thought this was evil. It’s actually not, when you really look at it.
For example, Christians think Satanists are evil. Most Satanists are atheists. There are some who aren’t, but even the ones who aren’t aren’t doing sacrifices and whatnot. That’s not happening. Every symbol of evil that has existed has been some sort of misrepresentation of the truth of what is actually going on. An oversimplification of what’s actually going on.
That doesn’t mean bad things don’t happen. What it means is that where you’re normally looking for evil, it’s not there. That to me is pretty clear. My opinion of what actually happens is not that there’s a force of evil. There’s no force of evil. I believe when there’s actually harm going on where people are doing stuff that is way out there (take Hitler, serial killers, rapists, whatever you want), I wouldn’t call that evil, because they think they’re doing good. There have been plenty of things that people thought they were doing good, and later on, “What were you thinking?” In their sick little world, it makes sense to them. To me, it’s not evil. I would call it sickness.
Christine: Yes, I can see it.
Justin: I don’t actually even get into evil too much. If somebody’s doing something they shouldn’t do, I just react accordingly to prevent it.
Brandon: I’m not saying everyone’s doing good and everyone is good within and forgive everyone. I’m not saying that. We’ll get into that later. What I’m saying is, good and evil are oversimplifications of a dichotomy that doesn’t exist.
Christine: It’s really dual. People think good is being kind and evil is everything else. Or good is following God and evil is following Satan or something. There’s such a gray area with the whole evil thing. It’s not just that.
Brandon: The black and white doesn’t even exist when you really look at it. It cancels itself out.
Justin: Two sides of the same coin. The hedge knight and the robber knight are two sides of the same coin.
Brandon: Never heard of that.
Justin: The hedge knight is when food is right, spring and summer, he is a true knight. He fights for those who need it. When times are lean and hard, he turns robber in the cold winter.
Brandon: Right. When anything is a dualistic dichotomy, it tends to be oversimplified. What I’m saying is not that this dichotomy doesn’t exist as such because no one ever thinks they’re doing evil. No one thinks, “I’m the one doing evil.” It’s always, “Those people over there are the ones doing evil.”
Christine: It’s a big blame game.
Evil Exists Subjectively But Not Objectively
Brandon: It’s never me. It’s always the other one. How do you know? Where is it written, this is evil, this is good? No matter what happens, it’s always going to be a subjective judgment. It’s never a good or evil thing. To me, certain people have really, really, really ineffective belief systems and values that lead to sickness. I mean lead to things that harm many people in a clear physical, mental, emotional, spiritual way.
I won’t call it “evil,” because where can you put in evil? What does it mean? Most people who do what we call evil are generally religious people (let’s say Christians or Muslims or whatever, not to say an atheist can do evil, too, or anyone can do what we consider evil)….There’s not a clearly defined group of people that are the ones who do evil. That’s not how it is. It’s anyone anywhere that does these things that we would call evil that I’m calling sickness or really, really, really ineffective. It’s a scapegoat, I guess you could say.
Christine: That’s true. That’s a good way of putting it, as a scapegoat.
Brandon: Where can you really point to and say, “Yes, that’s where the evil begins”? They followed this deity or this thing. Everyone, when you trace it back, at some point it was a series of decisions. They never chose, “I’m going to do evil.” It was a series of decisions that led to that choice. Or sometimes it’s just a brain chemistry thing. There’s scientific evidence that there is some chemical in the brain that can predict at least some people who will grow up to be either serial killers or sociopaths or whatnot. It’s a physical imbalance somewhere. Not to justify what they do, but it’s there. It’s either a physical imbalance or a just a series of decisions that went really badly. Where’s the evil? No one chooses it. Usually, the icons of good aren’t actually so good as what you might think. Any icon of good that you hold up as a really good person, you dig deep enough and you’re going to find something. There’s even things about Mother Teresa. She wasn’t as good as people say she was.
Christine: Oh, really? I didn’t know that. You’ll have to tell me later.
Brandon: Yes, that’s a story for another day.
Justin: I haven’t researched her much. She did her thing. There was some stuff I did hear. I don’t know how true it was.
Brandon: I’ve heard it from several sources. I tend to believe it. Even Gandhi is the same thing. You look at his life deeply enough.
Justin: [laughs] Yes, Gandhi.
Christine: You know what happens. When people die, people glorify the people that die.
Brandon: Martin Luther King, Jr. was an alcoholic or something. Have you heard of this, Justin? I don’t remember.
Justin: I haven’t done a lot of research into things like that. They were flawed. They were humans.
Brandon: I’m not justifying people who do bad things. I’m using “bad” because I don’t have a better term for it at this point.
Christine: Sick things?
Brandon: Sick things. [laughs] I’m not justifying harmful actions. I’m not devaluing the good or the helpful, kind things that other people have done. Gandhi and Mother Teresa and Martin Luther King have all done great things, but we idolize them. We put them on a pedestal. They’re not these perfect saints who have no flaws whatsoever.
Christine: They’re human beings.
Brandon: You did deeply enough and you’re going to find something. It’s just the nature of things.
Christine: We all have our quirks. We all do things.
Brandon: When it comes down to it, good and evil is an illusion. It just doesn’t mean anything useful.
Christine: Here’s another example. I knew people when I was in elementary school especially. A friend of mine on Facebook used to bully everyone else but me. I don’t know why. He was always nice to me and didn’t really pick on me that much. He picked on everyone else. Or, he changed after he met me. I don’t know which. I just know he treated me differently. That wasn’t every bully, but I remember that example especially.
Justin: That’s interesting. That is actually really interesting. He treated everyone like that but you.
Brandon: Those things are illusions, in my opinion. When you see someone doing something harmful or a sickness, it’s a physical imbalance or a sickness or a series of decisions. I’ll give the example of Hitler. I don’t know a ton about his life before everything happened. He grew up Catholic.
Justin: His father abused him. His mother loved him. He loved his mother.
Christine: I thought he was Lutheran. No, maybe not.
Justin: He fought in World War I.
Brandon: He was Christian, anyway. He was an artist. He tried to go to art school. I believe he was rejected. He was a product of post-WWI Germany, which was in very poor shape.
Justin: He fought in WWI, actually.
Brandon: Yes, he did. Again, this is not justification. This is just explanation. He wanted to help the German people. I truly do believe that. Maybe some of it was selfish, but he did want to help his people. He was just really, really mistaken. There was something he read when he was younger about the Aryans and Jews that got into his head. He blamed all the problems. It was an easy scapegoat, so to speak. The thing to remember is that anti-Semitism was very, very, very popular. He just took it way to another level. [laughs]
Justin: He thought in a completely different level with it.
Brandon: Right. But it was very common to be anti-Semitic. Again, a very poor series of choices led up to a horrible, horrible, horrible outcome. That’s really what it was. I would not call him evil. People always point to anyone who deserves an eternity in hell point to him. If anyone does, he does. I don’t think so.
Justin: [laughs] If anybody deserves to go to hell, it’s that guy over there.
Christine: Not me. I’ve killed many people.
Justin: But this guy! [laughs] Let me tell you about him. [laughs]
Christine: We love pointing fingers, don’t we?
Brandon: That’s just how I see it. There is no evil at any point of that chain of events. It was just a poor series of choices that led to a very, very bad, tragic outcome. I’m not justifying it. I’m not saying it was good in any way or even less bad or less harmful. I’m saying it was a horrible, harmful outcome, but to pin it on evil is too easy.
Justin: That’s why I rarely do. If somebody says, “That guy is evil,” and by the standards of where we are and what he did, my thing is, “Is what he did an evil act?” That, to me, is more exact than straight, pure evil. No one’s just evil. Some acts might be evil in certain situations. I just rarely go with it because my thing is, if you did something that harmed, injured, or impeded a group or person in a situation and you did it intentionally, then I have to act even if you thought it doesn’t really matter. I have to do something about it. Someone has to do something about it.
Brandon: I still don’t think even an act could be called evil itself. There are certain acts that are harmful.
Justin: Relatively in that context, as a definition for if you’re talking to a group of people who say, “Is that an evil act?” I will participate in the conversation by going along with it or not. We have a marker. But in my mind, I don’t really do much with good acts or evil acts. I’ve seen people who were doing good acts, especially in the disability field, they’re supposedly doing a good act, and they’re absolutely doing amazing harm to their client or child. You’re like, “Your intention is good, but let me tell you why this is so far off and you’re doing a tremendous amount of damage.” That’s why I don’t do in my mind good and evil. I might do it so we can have a base to go by. Does that make sense?
Justin: If you are doing X, Y, and Z, one way or the other, you have to be prevented from doing X, Y, and Z if that is injuring, harming, or impeding someone in some way. I don’t care why you’re doing it.
Brandon: I agree with that. We’ll talk about that soon. What does it mean? Like I said earlier, just because something’s not necessarily evil doesn’t mean you shouldn’t act against it. We’ll get into that discussion next. We’re going to take a quick musical break. Once we come back, we will continue with this discussion. In the meantime, you are listening to The Unseen World. We will return in just a moment.
Rejecting the Label of “Evil” Doesn’t Mean You Have to Put Up with Bad Behavior
Brandon: We are back. Again, you are listening to The Unseen World. We are discussing today the nature of evil and how exactly evil fits in this whole discussion we’ve been having lately about magic and actions in general. Before the break, we were talking about the definition of evil. It’s just a useless dichotomy to make because it’s too simple. You can’t really point to something and say that’s evil. It’s just a series of really bad choices that people make.
What I want to discuss now is to say, “All that being said and true, let’s assume there’s no evil. You’re misunderstanding it, or it’s a bad series of choices. With all that being said, that doesn’t mean you don’t have a choice over your life and a choice over what you accept and what you don’t accept.” Just because you can say that’s no evil and there’s no evil and it’s all relative, doesn’t mean you don’t have personal judgment.
I’m just saying there’s no objective evil. There’s nothing you can point to and say, “That is objectively, absolutely evil.” You can’t do that. There’s nothing you can point to and say that. You can absolutely hold a personal code of ethics and personal set of judgments about what is acceptable and what is unacceptable. I’m not saying that you should say there’s a core of good in everyone and there’s no evil and everyone means well. That’s just plain naïve. I used to do that. [laughs] I used to be really, really, really over-trusting.
Christine: Oh, my gosh. Do you want to tell some stories?
Brandon: It’s gotten me in hot water more than once.
Christine: Do you mean boiling water?
Brandon: Yes, boiling water.
Christine: You should tell a story.
Brandon: I don’t even know. It’s not even worth it. I don’t know. [laughs]
Justin: Embarrassing. You used to what?
Brandon: The best example is when I was 17. Is that the one you were thinking of?
Christine: I was thinking of the current one, the one before that.
Brandon: That’s a good one. When I was 17 and someone came along and made all these promises and said, “I have all this experience. I can help out. I can make your business grow.” I said, “Yay!” I was a 17-year-old. I was dumb. He seemed very nice. I gave him some money to buy some licenses for the business. You can bet what happened with that money. Never saw it. Took a loss on that, $500, I think. Got me in hot water with a few clients. It was bad. I repeated it a few other times. I was one who was always very, very trusting. I’m not saying to be that way.
Christine: In your defense, you didn’t know.
Brandon: Well, yes. I’ve always been this optimist.
Christine: Yes, you have.
Brandon: I was always naïve.
Christine: You still do it, sometimes.
Brandon: Sometimes. I think I’ve gotten better, overall.
Christine: You’re also mature.
Brandon: I try to find the good in people, and that sometimes can bite you back. I’m not saying that they’re doing evil, but they mean to profit while not really caring what happens to you.
Justin: Other people actually—this is probably the worst—they straight mean well, but they are just not going to execute. You know it.
Brandon: That was not this person. He absolutely knew he was scamming me. I wrote a review in this forum where people in my industry were congregating. It was very active. For years afterward, I wrote this post about this guy and please just keep away from him. He scammed me out of $500. Just keep well away. For years and year after, I would get emails from people saying this guy contacted me, and I thought there was something fishy. I looked him up on this forum, and I found your post. Thank goodness, because I could have been scammed out of a lot of money. He was trying to get money out of me and whatnot.
Christine: You even got it more recently.
Brandon: Yes, a few years ago.
Christine: I knew you. I remember.
Brandon: That little post did a lot of good for years. He definitely meant to. I know what you mean, Justin, too. There are definitely people who mean to scam someone. That doesn’t go against what I said earlier because they’ll justify it some way. “All that matters is my own profits.” I don’t know how they justify it. I just know that they do. It’s something that definitely happens. I would be very, very trusting and get in these tough situations. Some people aren’t trustworthy. I’m not saying everyone is filled with good and you can trust them. I’m not saying that. Some people are downright dangerous. It’s like saying just because a lion isn’t evil for hunting down a smaller animal doesn’t mean you should go walk up to the lion and try to pet it.
Christine: It’s funny. It brings up a point. I was listening to this (I actually wasn’t going to say this, but I will now) priest in the liberal Catholic Church who talked about evil spirits. It’s a misunderstanding, really. He’s an exorcist in the liberal Catholic Church. He’s not in the Roman Catholic Church. They’re more open in the liberal Catholic Church. Basically, he said, “There are no such things as evil spirits. It’s like a raccoon getting into your garbage can.” That’s what he said. Even if they possess someone for some reason, like evil spirits do that. I’m calling them that because that’s what they call them. Negative entities, maybe. If they’re possessing someone, they don’t know that what they’re doing is wrong.
Brandon: Or they don’t consider it. They don’t care.
Christine: They don’t care. Usually, it’s the people who did stupid things like get into things they shouldn’t have. They always open the door. It’s not like a negative entity is going to come knocking on Brandon and say, “You look cool. I want to possess you today.” That’s not how it works. He said, “People have this misunderstanding about evil.” It was the same thing about lions. He used that example, with lions. Are they evil because they’re hunting and they’re killing prey in the most vicious way possible? No. It’s what they are. It’s the same with people.
Brandon: Just because evil doesn’t exist doesn’t mean no one’s dangerous. It doesn’t mean that no one is going to hurt you. This is one of the biggest virtues of the left-hand path. It’s very realistic. As Spartan or pessimistic as it seems, it’s about survival of the fittest. I’m reading this book called Wisdom of Eosphoros, and it’s talking about the left-hand path. You’ve got to be strong. If you’re weak, someone’s going to take advantage. You have to be strong. No one else is going to do it for you. You have to be the one to do it, survival of the fittest. That’s how it is. That doesn’t mean that you go and trust everyone, because you’re going to get hurt.
Christine: I want to ask something because this is interesting. I think you’ll know what I’m referring to. Is it possible that someone could start out as being a trustworthy person and then situations happen in their lives where they turn completely and hurt people?
Brandon: Sure. Of course.
Christine: I’m personally not, but there’s a situation where that’s going on.
Christine: You know what I’m talking about.
Justin: It just depends. Anything can happen. Family situations, friend situations, and life situations can happen. That person has to make certain choices and decisions. Suddenly they’re just not someone you can trust.
Brandon: That proves my point. You can’t point to that person and say that’s an evil person.
Christine: Right, because this person didn’t start out that way.
Brandon: You have to look at them and say this is a person who has done really good things in the past and now is doing really hurtful things. It reminds me also of a friend on Christine’s Facebook. I’m not going to say he’s your friend. He made this really, really hurtful, horrible, horrible, horrible times a million comment about…
Christine: No, it was a status.
Brandon: A status about non-Christians. I’m not going to go into what it was. I said, “That is horrible.”
Christine: He doesn’t think it is. There you go.
Brandon: One of Christine’s friends who knows this guy says, “He has a good heart because he does this and this and this.” I said, “I don’t care. I honestly don’t care. He did this really, really hurtful, horrible thing.” I’m not saying he himself is evil. I’m saying he’s done some pretty harmful things, and I don’t accept that in my reality. I don’t put up with that. I don’t care how good of a heart you have.
Christine: Remember, Brandon, when you said it was a sickness. In this case I think it definitely is, especially with mental issues.
Brandon: That doesn’t mean it justifies it.
Christine: No, it doesn’t.
Brandon: A lot of times we say, “Oh, that person’s sick.” The way you said it just now sounded like you were justifying it. It doesn’t justify the action. I will not justify what he said. It was a horrible, horrible, horrible thing he said. That was in my reality something I don’t put up with.
Justin: The same thing with you seeing somebody doing something. Some of the folks in the field I work in—they’re doing something that’s hurtful to the client. They just don’t understand. I’m out, or something. They just don’t understand. I don’t care. So? That doesn’t give them a right to do whatever. “No, it doesn’t. I wasn’t trying to justify it.” Well, actually, you did.
Brandon: That’s my point. It doesn’t mean everyone is secretly good and trustworthy and whatnot. No. There are predators out there who will hurt you if they get a chance. I’m not going to say it’s their nature, but it’s their choice. They think to them it’s justified. You have to protect yourself. You have to be strong. You have to not allow that in your reality. What I’m saying is that you have the choice of what you want in your reality. You have the choice of what is acceptable in your reality. This is why I think absolutely in certain situations (I won’t say which situations because it’s up to the individual) doing magic that (cursing is a simplistic term) brings harm to someone in some way is warranted.
Justin: You have come a long way, Brandon. [laughs] Congratulations, sir. Welcome aboard. I’ve finally got you on there. I’ve been there. I was waiting for you to come aboard the whole time.
Brandon: [laughs] If someone’s in my reality and they are a predator in the sense of doing something that’s harmful to me or to someone else I care about, then it is within my right to stop them. I will either stop them by direct means (obviously legal) like telling them off or using social manipulation to make them leave.
Justin: I like the way you put that. That was very delicate, Brandon.
Christine: You are so good at it. Sometimes I let you handle my situations.
Brandon: Christine’s referred to me as the Anti-Christ because I’m very good at manipulation. I can shape words to make someone think the way I want them to think. I hate to admit this on the podcast. That’s a talent of mine, that I can shape words to make people think the way I want them to think.
Christine: I’ll ask Brandon, “How should I say this to this person to get them to do what I want?” He’ll tell me, and I’ll do it. I’ve gotten better. You called me the little Anti-Christ, too.
Brandon: Yes. You’re my Anti-Christ in training.
Methods for Protecting Yourself from Harmful People
Justin: It’s really strange. I will say I’m actually fairly intelligent and I have a lot of knowledge, but I almost always simply resort to brute force, whether it’s with my words or actions or simply saying, “I understand what’s going on here. Let me explain to you what I’m going to do if you do this.”
Brandon: However you want to approach it, you can either take direct means (which I’d start with, if possible) or magical measures. I really don’t like what this person is doing in my life. They’re not stopping, therefore they are going to be stopped magically. They are going to know I’m not very pleased about this. That is perfectly acceptable. It doesn’t mean you think they are evil per se. It means they are unacceptable within your frame of reference.
Those two things can be hard to reconcile because we like to think objectively. What is objectively good? What is objectively evil? If someone is doing objective evil, then they’re bad. No, this goes back to you being the god of your own universe. You get to say in your universe what is good and bad for you. That applies to people in your universe that are interacting with you or people you care for. I’m not saying if someone’s doing their own thing that’s not influencing you or anyone you care for that you should do something to them. They’re just doing their own thing. If someone’s doing something to you or people you care for that you don’t accept, then you absolutely have the right to do what you want and stop them in some way.
Justin: The other thing I even say is if someone is truly proving to be a detriment in a situation, I have the right to get you out of that situation, no matter who you are. You’re actually injuring me (no matter what your intentions are) at this point, so I have to not necessarily remove you totally but get you out of that situation where I am, one way or the other.
Brandon: There is this Satanic Bible. Justin, have you heard of it?
Brandon: There is something in the 9 Satanic statements. It’s the last item. I’m going to paraphrase it because I don’t want to look up the quote. If you come across someone who is (they put it “annoying you”) doing something unacceptable, ask them to stop. If they don’t, destroy them. Dramatic, but that’s kind of what we’re saying.
Justin: I’m almost on that level.
Brandon: Destroyed is just dramatic for stop them. Stop them forcibly.
Christine: Don’t kill them. Please don’t kill them.
Brandon: Obviously that’s not what it meant.
Justin: She was telling me that.
Brandon: One of the statements I love is, “If a guest is in your home and is bothering you, you don’t have to be nice to them.” I said, “Yay!”
Christine: Trust me, you’re already good at that. I know.
Brandon: It says something like, “Be cruel to them.” I said, “Okay.”
Christine: I’m going to tell a story and embarrass Brandon for a minute. I know when Brandon doesn’t like someone because someone came over to our house once. Actually, there have been multiple people that have. Brandon will say nothing. If that person tries to touch him, all hell breaks loose. It’s not like he yells or screams. His energy is like, “Get the hell away from me.” He is cold as ice. That person will leave, and I’ll say, “You didn’t like them, did you?”
Brandon: I’ll give an example of social manipulation. Someone came over a few weeks ago. Christine gave this person a quick massage. She was going to help Christine with something. Everything was done within about a half an hour. We had dinner soon because something was going on afterwards.
Christine: I don’t think so.
Brandon: I thought something was.
Christine: It was Tuesday.
Brandon: It was the support call. We had plenty of time. It was 5:00, a little after 5. Honestly, I was annoyed. This statement applied. This person was in my home and I didn’t like it. She was talking to Christine. I wouldn’t call it a conversation. It was a one-sided conversation where Christine was, “Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm” and nodding her head and agreeing. This lady was talking from construction to her home all the way to student loans in fifteen or twenty minutes. I have no idea how it got there. After every conversational transition, I’m like, “Okay, it has to end here. It has to wrap up. She has to wrap up eventually.” She didn’t. Eventually, I wasn’t rude or anything. I said something that implied we had to get on with our lives, and it didn’t make her feel like she was unwelcome at all.
Christine: All you said was we should get dinner soon.
Brandon: We should get dinner soon, which we didn’t have to or anything. It made her leave.
Christine: I was hungry.
Brandon: We didn’t have to or anything. It made her leave. That’s magic. My will is accomplished. I want her to leave. She left.
Justin: Did you sweep her footsteps out the door with a broom?
Brandon: [laughs] I should have. That’s what I mean with social manipulation. It doesn’t have to be rude. Depending on your style, it could be.
Christine: You could tell when someone just doesn’t want to talk to you. They’ll either do the “uh-huh” thing or they’ll just be like, “I should probably get going doing blah blah blah.”
Brandon: Some people just don’t take cues. You could be trying to walk away, and the person keep talking.
Justin: I just don’t, really. There’s a lot of stuff I miss because I just do it. I just do stuff. “Hey, man, I’ve got to go. I’ll holler back at you.” I do it just like that. I’ll be talking to people and say, “Hey, I’ve got to bounce. I don’t want to hold you up, man.” I have this thing where I really don’t like holding people up or interfering. I’m allergic to holding people up. I don’t hold you up. Then we’ll get together later or something. Sometimes they say, “You’re not holding me up,” and then I know that means I can stay a little longer. I like to keep it moving.
Brandon: That’s what I’m saying. You are under no obligation to be kind to someone. You’re not under an obligation to do that. If someone’s annoying you, bothering you, or doing something you don’t accept, you have every right to either socially, psychologically, or magically get rid of that person. It could be in a gentle way or a forceful way. I’m not saying either way is wrong. That’s your choice. Some people are just clueless, so I’m more gentle with those. Some people are really, really, really unacceptably doing something I don’t like, and then I can be more forceful.
Justin: Conjure’s like that, too, Brandon. Conjure’s like that.
Brandon: That doesn’t mean there’s good or evil. That means you’re the god of your reality. You say what is okay and what is not. The spiritual people, so many of us get this thing where we have to be nice to everyone, love and light.
Christine: Love does not necessarily mean you have to be nice.
Brandon: We had this discussion in the Order of the Black Flame. You don’t even have to love everyone. Unconditional love is not a requirement. There are people I absolutely do not like and do not love. That is not a requirement. There are people that are just not acceptable to me. That might change if their actions change, but you do not have to unconditionally love every person in your life. It’s not even possible, I don’t think.
Justin: Universal love, sure. Unconditional, no. [laughs]
Brandon: It’s not possible. It’s not healthy. You get to be choosy about who’s in your life and who’s not. A lot of spiritual people get to this place where we have to accept, forgive, and love everyone and be nice to everyone. It doesn’t work because then you suppress. Have you ever met a spiritual person who was trying to be nice to everyone, but then they just suppress that anger that they have towards that one person? Just be angry! Just be angry.
Christine: You’ll get over it, maybe.
Justin: The thing is, yes, we’re all connected. That doesn’t mean you have to try to overdo the love and friendship thing. I’ve never been able to do it.
Brandon: Right. You have permission to be angry. You have permission to not like that person. You have permission to hate that person if you really want. My mother used to say, “I don’t hate anyone. I just dislike them.” You’re just saying that to make yourself feel better. [laughs]
Justin: There are some people to hate. The thing is, I don’t like to do that. I try to stop the energy before it gets to that level. It’s actually not good to just keep randomly hating and all this other stuff. I’ve met people like that. There are some times where you just make an exception. “I just don’t like Joe. I really don’t. I don’t like him. I don’t get along with him. Joe will take me places that I don’t really want to go, and he don’t want me to go.” [laughs] That’s just how it is.
Brandon: Right. You have that right. You don’t have to be loving toward everyone. You are allowed to be angry. I’m not saying it should last forever. The energy has to flow. But you can take that person out of your life. That’s perfectly fine. It’s not like I have to be okay with you. Some spiritual people become pushovers because they try to accept everyone.
Christine: Forgiving is not the same as loving people. Forgiving only helps you.
Brandon: You might not be able to at first. That’s okay.
Christine: That is okay.
Justin: Forgiving does not mean accepting stuff from people, either. It just means, “I am okay with what you did. You will never do this again. We are not friends. We’re not going to hang out, but it’s okay that you did whatever it is you did.” That’s forgiving. Forgive them in spirit and keep moving. You can have them out of your life. I’ve cut people out. I’ve recently cut people out a few months ago. I didn’t even tell them I did it. Just did it.
Brandon: Right, exactly. No, there’s not objective evil. It just doesn’t exist, but you have the right in your own life to say who can be there and who can’t be. You have the right to enforce that through social, psychological, or magical means. Knowing how to do that—the social/psychological methods we call lesser black magic. They’re the manipulation tactics where you accomplish your will through direct means like wordplay, certain psychological tactics, and whatnot. It’s really important to be good at that. That will go a long way.
But magically, it’s greater black magic or whatever you want to call it. You can use that, too. Ritualistic black magic or visualization to stop someone. That is perfectly okay. That doesn’t mean that there’s objective evil. It just means you don’t like what they’re doing and that’s it.
We had this discussion in the Order recently about judgment and being judgmental or judging people. Obviously, certain kinds of judgments are prejudice and not cool, but you can judge a person that you don’t like them and don’t want to be around them. That’s judgment, but it’s okay. That’s fine. That’s not against any rules or anything. That’s hard for some people to accept because of this love and light right-hand path thing conditions us to say we have to accept everyone. That’s not true. That’s about all I have today for this discussion about the nature of evil. I thought it was a really good discussion.
Christine: That was great.
Brandon: It went really fast. [laughs]
Justin: I’m not mean, people. I’m not mean. I’m really not.
Brandon: You can be mean when you need to be.
Justin: No, you’ve got to do what you’ve got to do.
Christine: I can be, too.
Justin: You’ve really got to do what you’ve got to do. I don’t really have a lot of…
Brandon: A lot of times, I’m seen by people who know me as very harmless. [laughs]
Christine: [laughs] Sure.
Brandon: They do! You know that.
Christine: I know, but it’s not true.
Brandon: No. I hide my claws, I guess.
Christine: You remind me of a cat.
Justin: I don’t know what people get off of me, but I guess it depends on who you ask.
Brandon: A lot of people think I’m very harmless, but I can express and get my will done when I need to. Oftentimes without people even knowing it, which is pretty awesome. I want to be seen as someone who can get things done when I want to.
Christine: But you’re the nicest person ever.
Brandon: Yeah, but if you’re on my good side. [laughs]
Christine: That’s just it. People meet me and I tell them I get angry. They’re like, “You? Angry?” I’m like, “You don’t know the wrath of Christine.”
Justin: Of course. Everybody gets angry. I love it when people joke around and say someone never gets angry. Yes, they do. The other thing I like is when people tell me, “You just don’t want to see me mad.” I almost laugh. You don’t really understand. You get mad and nothing really happens. I get mad and go get candles and you’ve got a problem. [laughs]
Brandon: Apply your will. This recent example with Christine’s friend on Facebook who said those horrible things—I was very, very close. If it had been a repeated incident, I probably would have. I was very close to unleashing some magic.
Christine: I still wish you would.
Brandon: I was so sickened by what this person said.
Christine: I give you permission.
Brandon: I considered it. If it would happen again, I probably would. Are you still friends with him?
Brandon: If it happens again.
Christine: You just want it to now.
Brandon: I was very close.
Christine: You still can.
Brandon: I was very close.
Christine: I’m curious. I’m going to remain friends with him and see.
Justin: [laughs] Absolutely.
Brandon: This was a good discussion. It’s such a controversial thing. People are afraid to go here. It was a fine line, but I think we balanced it well overall. Some people like to get offended at anything, so you can’t really help those. If you look at this rationally speaking, I think you can see where we’re coming from. I hope everyone enjoyed this discussion.
Christine: I loved it.
Justin: I loved it. I thought it was great.
Christine: It gave me some ideas.
Brandon: [laughs] Gave you some ideas.
Justin: I thought it was great.
Brandon: [laughs] Again, if you want to see the show notes or read the transcript or leave a comment, you can go to cocreationcoaching.org/unseen007.
If you want to rate, review, or subscribe to us on iTunes, you can go to cocreationcoaching.org/unseenitunes and that will take you to our iTunes page. Once again, I hope that everyone has a wonderful weekend. I am Brandon Olivares.
Christine: And I’m Christine Olivares.
Justin: And I’m Justin Williams.
Brandon: Anything is possible.
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How About You?
Now it’s your turn. How do you feel about the nature of evil? How will you enforce your own personal ethical code? Let me know your thoughts in the comments.